Talk:Advanced rulebook/Archive01

The following discussions were archived from Talk:Advanced rulebook, 2015-06-03.

Please add any new comments to the current talk page.

Example
The example used in the "Simultaneous triggered effects" section cannot occur. Given that the Baron Geddon and Ragnaros are triggering at the end of turn, I gather that they must be on the same side of the board (or consequently, owned by the same player). Why then would the Ragnaros hit the Baron Geddon and kill it?
 * Thanks for pointing that out! I've revised the example by giving the opponent an Ironbark Protector who gets hit by the Rag instead. It should be correct now - feel free to point out if there are still errors. -- Taohinton (talk) 21:45, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Inconsistency
There's an inconsistency in the step-by-step example in the deathrattle-section. It is stated:

"A step-by-step example: A Harvest Golem is summoned, joining a damaged 2/4 Deathlord Flamestrike is cast, destroying both minions Both of the minions take damage and begin to die; their status is changed, but they still remain on the board Although all minions begin to die at once, this actually takes place from left to right Consequences of minion death play out: a Duplicate is activated, copying the first minion to have begun to die, in this case the left-most minion, a Harvest Golem."

This collides with a statement made earlier:

"When multiple minions are killed at once, there is a specific sequence in which their deaths are resolved. [...] Any Deathrattles and consequences from death will now take place and resolve - this includes triggered effects such as Cult Master and Secrets such as Duplicate. This takes place one minion at a time, in order in which the effect entered play. Each effect will play out individually and resolve, before the next activates."

Not the Harvest Golem, but the Deathlord should be put in your hand by the Duplicate.


 * Thanks - I'd updated the AoE section following changes to the way that works, but forgot to do the same for the Deathrattle example. The example was originally correct, but thankfully now obeys the rules as now explained in the earlier section. I've updated both sections. -- Taohinton (talk) 19:57, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Warsong Commander trigger timing
I made some comments at Warsong Commander's page about its timing. Long story short, I was unable to confirm its behavior as described here. Any sources? - jerodast (talk) 04:29, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * At the very least it is inconsistent with established sequence of events. Based on that, and intended interactions with Bloodsail Raider, it would make more sense that it triggers after battlecries like other triggers but references attack values from when the minion initially entered the battlefield.  With the current bug to Warsong Commander, could this be tested with Amani Berserker, Snipe, and Commanding Shout?  In theory, snipe and WC trigger simultaneously, with the Berserker either gaining charge and becoming a 5/1, or just becoming 5/1.  Since the bug currently stops minions who go above 3 attack through battlecries from gaining charge, this would possibly give insight into where Warsong Commander's trigger currently exists in the sequence of events, and whether it triggers before other effects or uses initial attack values and triggers as expected.  A similar interaction would be whether or not Starving Buzzard triggers off of Druid of the Fang. - Ambiwar (talk) 05:48, 02 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I've edited Warsong Commander to clarify the difference in its behaviour, given that the bug appears to be a rather long-term one. The intended behaviour is and has for a very long time been to activate after auras; this allows Stormwind Champion to prevent it from activating, something which would not happen if it used base values. Starving Buzzard while far less popular is not bugged, and activates prior to Battlecries, so will not trigger from Druid of the Fang. -- Taohinton (talk) 07:57, 2 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the intended attack values are after auras, and still triggering in the appropriate order. In regards to Starving Buzzard with Druid of the Fang, and it does indeed trigger from the beast transformation.  I posted on the official bug report forums.- Ambiwar (talk) 18:41, 02 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, I actually did some testing myself that day and found the same thing, re: Buzzard and Druid of the Fang. It's not a bug though, it's been officially confirmed. I don't have a provable understanding at present of quite how this works, but the same is effectively true for Murloc Tidecaller, which normally activates prior to auras (and every other type of effect, which is strange enough), but will also apparently activate at some point after secrets (which are themselves activated after Battlecries) if it didn't activate in its normal spot. Buzzard seems to be the same, both with regard to Druid of the Fang, and also Faceless. I've already added that info to the page. For the time being, as far as a simple observational understanding goes, I've hypothesised a 'catch up' phase at the end of the summoning. Worth noting is that this is not consistent with behaviour of spell-triggered minion spawning, e.g., Troggzor the Earthinator, whose summoned Burly Rockjaw Trogg won't activate from the same spell. So it seems either there is only a catchup phase (etc) for minions and not for spells, or Buzzard and Tidecaller are specific exceptions. -- Taohinton (talk) 22:06, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Clarification of footnote 57
Hey Taihinton, footnote 57 says:

"Death of minions which cause the death of the Cult Master/Ghoul (e.g., Explosive Sheep death) will however trigger the effect."

Does it matter if the Explosive Sheep or the Cult Master is older here? For example I picture something like

Explosive Sheep played, Cult Master played, Explosive Sheep dies: Consequence of death 'Explosive Sheep deathrattle' goes off, killing the Cult Master. Cult Master is now dead, so the Consequence of death 'Cult Master reacts to a death' can no longer resolve, so it doesn't.

Cult Master played, Explosive Sheep played, Explosive Sheep dies: Consequence of death 'Cult Master reacts to a death' resolves, then Consequence of death 'Explosive Sheep deathrattle' kills the Cult Master.

But is this what really happens? --Patashu (talk) 04:22, 15 February 2015 (UTC)


 * No, order of play makes no difference in this case. The point is that the Sheep's Deathrattle (DR) doesn't trigger until after it has died, and been removed from the board. Meanwhile, deaths are never resolved (no-one gets removed from the board) until after all simultaneous effects have played out. Thus, as with simultaneous end of turn effects, all triggers activated by the death of the Sheep will be activated in order of play, before any deaths are then resolved. It's just the same as in the Ragnaros and Gruul example.
 * Basically, the Sheep takes fatal damage or is destroyed; then it gets removed from the board; then all death-related effects are triggered, including its DR and the Cult Master; then the system checks for any characters now below 1 Health, and spots the Cult Master; then the Cult Master is removed from the board; then any death-related effects from that are triggered. I've edited the related section to make this clearer. -- Taohinton (talk) 09:23, 16 February 2015 (UTC)


 * So as a follow-up: Let's say Explosive Sheep #1, Explosive Sheep #2 and Dark Cultist are on the board. A cleave kills Explosive Sheep #1 and Dark Cultist.
 * If Explosive Sheep #1 was played before Dark Cultist, Explosive Sheep #2 detonates then Dark Cultist heals it THEN the game checks to see if any new deaths have occured since all consequences of minion death from a simultanous minion death have been completed, so Explosive Sheep #2 is not dead.
 * But if Explosive Sheep #1 was played after Dark Cultist, Explosive Sheep #1 detonates after the Dark Cultist goes off, the game checks and sees Explosive Sheep #2 is dead and it goes off as well.
 * Is this a correct way to explore how 'when simultaneous effects are resolved, new deaths are not checked until all of them are resolved'? --Patashu (talk) 22:38, 16 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Didn't see this comment until now!
 * You've got it slightly wrong, in that all death consequences from a minion are played out, then all death consequences from the next simultaneous death play out, etc, until all current deaths have resolved. Only at that point does the game check for deaths and start new death processes if appropriate. That's the concept of 'simultaneous' deaths/effects - they all play out before any deaths are worked out.
 * First example, order of events is: Sheep 1 and Dark Cultist die at same time; then Sheep 1's DR happens - deals 2 damage to Sheep 2 (now -1 Health); then Dark Cultist's DR happens - grants buff to Sheep 2 (now +2 Health); Game now checks for deaths, finds Sheep 2 at 2 Health and therefore does not kill it.
 * Second example - exactly the same outcome. Dark Cultist and Sheep 1 die at same time; then Dark Cultist's DR happens - grants buff to Sheep 2 (now +4 Health); then Sheep 1's DR happens - deals 2 damage to Sheep 2 (now +2 Health); Game now checks for deaths, finds Sheep 2 at 2 Health and therefore does not kill it.
 * Sometimes the order of play in this kind of example does matter, like if it had been Sheep, Sludge Belcher, Dark Cultist, with the first two destroyed; the Slime could have been destroyed by the Sheep or not depending on which was summoned first. -- Taohinton (talk) 10:30, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Another question: If a Deathlord and Deathlord die simultaneously and both of them summon a Flesheating Ghoul, the first Flesheating Ghoul obviously gets buffed by both Deathlords, but does the second Flesheating Ghoul get buffed by the first Deathlord or only the second? Basically, is there a final 'death is resolved' step that occurs AFTER ALL 'consequences of minion death' are resolved, or is each 'death is resolved' immediately after the specific 'consequences of minion death' for that minion?


 * That's a good question. It seems like the 'catchup phase' is part of the triggering phase, e.g. the casting of a Flamestrike, rather than of individual death or summoning processes. This would explain why in the case of Unleash the Hounds, a Buzzard will not proc until after all Hounds have been summoned; the catchup doesn't take place until the spell's effect phase itself resolves. I would therefore suspect the same would be true here, in which case both Ghouls would get buffed by both deaths: Flamestrike hits both Deathlords; both Deathlords are removed from the board; 1st Deathlord's DR spawns a Ghoul; 2nd Deathlord's DR spawns a Ghoul, and the 1st Ghoul is triggered from the 2nd Deathlord's death; the Flamestrike's effect phase then (and only then) resolves, thus triggering both Ghouls for the first death, and then triggering the 2nd Ghoul for the second. I've updated the page a little regarding this theorised phase. -- Taohinton (talk) 09:23, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Finally, this leads to: Is a secret like Duplicate/Avenge processed in the 'consequences of minion death' list, or is it a response to 'death is resolved' occuring? Because if a secret is found in the 'consequences of minion death' list RATHER than it being a response to 'death is resolved' occuring, then it makes perfect sense that a Mad Scientist dying and activating Duplicate/Avenge doesn't activate it on itself, because Duplicate/Avenge wasn't even in the 'consequences of minion death' list when it was compiled, but it will be in the next 'consequences of minion death' list for the next just died minion (if one exists) so can trigger now.

--Patashu (talk) 04:59, 15 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I haven't tested Avenge, but Duplicate and Redemption are both counted as death-triggered effects, just like DRs. Redemption is a little quirky in that it activates after all other triggers, but still for the specific triggering minion, not in the larger 'catchup phase'.
 * I think you're precisely correct, and in fact your questions have led me to understand the behaviour! In responding to your previous points, I realised that the behaviour of the catchup phase fits with it being part of the triggering phase, and not the process itself as was assumed. It's completely different from the catchup phase, despite it appearing similar. Thanks!
 * The remaining confusion regarding Mad Scientist appears to be explained by making secrets exceptions to the catchup phase. This would make sense, in order to prevent Mad Scientist Duplicating or Redemptioning itself. With that in place, the model now seems to fit all known examples. -- Taohinton (talk) 09:23, 16 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Glad my questions pushed you in the right direction! So there's a catchup phase for deaths but secrets are exempt from it. --Patashu (talk) 21:47, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, quick new question:

"Tested by User:Taohinton, 2014-02-19. Various scenarios. Starving Buzzard always triggers after any Battlecries. For example, playing Buzzard then Ironbeak Owl will result in the Buzzard drawing a card, then the Owl silencing the Buzzard. Other tested minions include Hungry Crab and Captain's Parrot."

^ I don't understand this. Surely if the Starving Buzzard triggers after battlecries, it will be silenced and not be able to draw the card anymore? Maybe you meant to say 'before' instead of 'after'?--Patashu (talk) 23:12, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for catching that! The rest of the note and its use in the article was correct, but somehow I wrote that bit the wrong way round. I've fixed it now. -- Taohinton (talk) 10:21, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Did an aura experiment
I got curious about when auras disappear from the board in AoE situations. Basically, a Stormwind Champion and Explosive Sheep are killed by a positional attack; does a Frostwolf Grunt drop back down to a 2/2 and then get exploded, or does the aura stick around long enough to save it? I tested both play orders of the Champion and Sheep, and in both cases the 2-health minion survived with 1-health (and other undamaged minions also ended up 1 below max health, aka 2 below their Champion-boosted health).


 * Test 1: Played Stormwind Champion, Explosive Sheep, Azure Drake, and Annoy-o-Tron, in order. Damaged Champion and Sheep to 1 health and removed Annoy-o-Tron's divine shield. Killed Champion and Sheep with Cone of Cold. The sheep exploded, then the stat buffs disappeared. The Drake was left a damaged 4/3, the Annoy-o-Tron a damaged 1/1.
 * Test 2: Played Explosive Sheep, Stormwind Champion, Annoy-o-Tron, Sen'jin Shieldmasta, and Water Elemental, in order. Damaged Champion and Sheep to 1 health and removed Annoy-o-Tron's divine shield. Killed Champion and Sheep with Cone of Cold. The sheep exploded, then the stat buffs disappeared. The Annoy-o-Tron was left at 1 health, the Shieldmasta at 4, and the Elemental at 5.

Test 1 suggests that not only does the buff stick around past the "minions are marked as dead" phase of dying, but it even sticks around after the Champion's death has been resolved and the game has moved on to resolving the Sheep's death. Perhaps this means there is an additional phase after sequential resolution of deaths in which passive auras deactivate. I may try to do a test in which the Champion and Sheep deaths are nested within a longer sequence of events, to try to pin down exactly when the aura vanished.

Anyway, not sure how we'd want to integrate this info into the AR, but feel free to use it.&#32;- jerodast (talk) 19:28, 21 February 2015 (UTC)


 * An interesting contribution! I've reproduced your tests, and it seems the aura doesn't vanish until after all consequences from all the Deathrattles have played out, so basically at the very end of the 'death consequences' or 'death resolution' phase, or after it has completed. The reason in general for this is to do with the game doing 'update state' passes, which it only does every so often (as noted in the Summoning minions section). So it's not so much that the aura stays around, more that the game hasn't checked to see if any stats need to be changed due to auras being added or removed. I'll add this to the page in a couple of places when I get the chance. -- Taohinton (talk) 02:49, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I've tested further myself and written fairly extensively about the subject in the article (and on some other pages). I've also added your two tests as references, with a couple of minor phrasing tweaks to make the consequences of the Sheep's Deathrattle very clear, etc. Good stuff! -- Taohinton (talk) 07:34, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Analysis by visual indicator
I'm glad you put in the note about the unreliability of the visuals. I don't trust the order those things play out and I try not to use them to draw conclusions. It's a risk/reward kind of thing - if I can't even devise a situation in which objectively different results occur (i.e. observable by the game state after all animations have finished), then by definition there is no concrete benefit to players for investigating that particular facet of timing, AND there is the possibility that inaccurate visuals lead to an incorrect understanding of the mechanics. Unfortunately this makes certain things "unmeasurable" because they cause/influence no measurable triggered effects (like damage) and can only be estimated by looking at animations.

On the other hand, it is possible that the animation delay only applies to cards being played, and attacks (the two places I've observed it), and that triggered effects actually do display consistently with order. I just wanted to voice a note of caution.

P.S. Originally I was going to say card draw was an example of an unmeasurable because no trigger interacts with hand size. However, I just realized that Anub'ar Ambusher's Deathrattle can provide a measurable "marker" as to what order cards are put in hand, at least in relation to anything that resolves in the same phase as Deathrattles (and hey, even if it always resolves before or after the Deathrattle then we still know that much). So...we just need to redo every Starving Buzzard test with a Faceless Manipulator'd damaged Ambusher, and a Knife Juggler to kill the enemy Unstable Ghoul to activate the Ambusher, and we're golden :P

&#32;- jerodast (talk) 12:57, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I didn't write that section as thoroughly as I might have done, and reading your reply has encouraged me to be clearer in my meaning (and to expand the section)!


 * The order of events is reliable (inconsistencies and bugs aside) and pretty observable - the main problems I know of are player intervention (ie you can play a card in the middle of a sequence of events, and the events will pause while the card gets played, but ignore the card) and mis-perception. In the first case, the sequence is not incorrect, it simply does the visual display of the card being played/turned into a minion on the board ahead of time; the rest is solid. Mis-perception is an issue in terms of how in some cases (such as card draw) one event which starts before another may not finish until after that event has itself finished; but it's not usually an issue if you're really paying attention, especially due to minor clues and visual effects which precede the main animations.


 * Regarding Buzzard, etc, all those tests were very clear and unambiguous. The sequence for triggers is very clear and (in this case helpfully) very slow, so there's no doubt about which triggered first. I've also tested most of them backwards and forwards and they're very consistent. In cases like card draw it's definitely harder to tell though; things like Burrowing Mine would be very helpful for testing card draw sequence, but we haven't gone there yet on the page I believe.


 * I do agree regarding general caution though; that's a good reason to test multiple times, take screenshots during events (to confirm later if nothing else), add unnecessary triggers such as Knife Juggler (to slow down and highlight the sequence), and especially to document the test comprehensively, rather than simply stating what is perceived to have occurred.


 * Anyway, I've expanded the section to discuss the game's flexibility regarding player interaction; feel free to check it out. -- Taohinton (talk) 13:33, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Impossible Movement section
I feel like this is worthy of inclusion into the advanced rulebook, since it describes an underlying effect shared by different effects and most people don't know it.

If a minion would be moved to a place on the board it can't go to, it is destroyed and consequences of death queued (such as deathrattles).

Sap effect: If the owner of the minion has 10 cards, the minion dies instead of being returned to its owner's hand.

MC effects: If the side of the board it would go to has 7 minions, the minion dies instead.

Shadow Madness: Has a bug that lets you, on the removal of the buff, go past 7 minions. Not sure if the use of the spell initially obeys the 7 minion limit or not. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVfwI-e7kkI

Open questions: Vanish, what order do minions get vanished in? Immune monsters, do they get destroyed and queue consequences of death or does something else happen? Recycle, if there is/was a limit on maximum deck size, would the monster be destroyed instead following this principle?

EDIT: Here's a video showing Vanish's effect with a full hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXvdgWDTjg0

EDIT 2: If you play Kezan Mystic to steal a secret but already have 5 active, the one stolen is destroyed instead, also following the rule. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02lvZj53RkM

--Patashu (talk) 04:48, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Good suggestion. I was thinking of writing up something like that for Mind control effect, but adding it here as a more general rule would be worth doing too. I'll look into it when I get the time. -- Taohinton (talk) 14:53, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

For Recycle it looks like a deck limit actually exists, 60! There is apparently no special effect for exceeding the deck limit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z2ZU-cIoG8 --Patashu (talk) 03:02, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Hearthstone Science that needs to be done
Hi Taohinton, here are four scenarios that need to be tested. I can't do the first two since they need Illidan Stormrage.

1) Can you steal a battlecry? Setup - Enemy has 1 hp Sylvanus, you have Knife Juggler and Illidan Stormrage. Play Jaraxxus. Illidan Stormrage reacts and spawns a Flame of Azzinoth. Knife Juggler reacts and throws a knife. HS checks for dead minions and finds Sylvanus. Sylvanus's deathrattle goes off and steals Jaraxxus. Who becomes Jaraxxus?

2) Can you stop a battlecry? Same scenario, but with a 1 or 2 hp battlecry minion, and an Explosive Sheep in place of Sylvanus. Does the battlecry go off or does the minion die before it starts?

3) Can you stop juggler #2 from juggling by killing juggler #2? You have two Knife Jugglers and play a Boulderfist Ogre. Knife Juggler #1 throws a knife into an enemy Explosive Sheep, killing Knife Juggler #2. Does juggler #2 juggle? Did the deathrattle go off here at all?

4) Can you stop juggler #2 from juggling by killing the summoned minion? You have two Knife Jugglers (buffed to 3/4) and play a Bloodfen Raptor. Knife Juggler #1 throws a knife into an enemy Explosive Sheep, killing Bloodfen Raptor. Does juggler #2 juggle? Did the deathrattle go off here at all?

--Patashu (talk) 22:46, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Thought of some extra ones.

5) Can Snipe prevent jugglers from juggling if it kills the played minion, or does Snipe trigger at a later stage?

6) What if Snipe is put into play by a Mad Scientist after juggle #1? Does it trigger? Does juggler #2 juggle?

7) Can Sword of Justice buff a dead minion and revive it?

--Patashu (talk) 23:05, 29 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Ooh fun! Unfortunately I don't have Illidan either, but now I must see if I can predict these. I believe most of them at least have hypothesized outcomes based on our current understanding of the rules...


 * 1) Not sure. I suspect stolen-Jaraxxus will remain on the board as a 3/15 minion, since Battlecries only happen to players who play minions from the hand, but maybe dirty programming hax prevent Jaraxxus from being targeted by Sylvanas at all. Also, as a loyal Forsaken I must inform you the Dark Lady's name has two As :P


 * 2) Even less sure, no idea. I could picture the minion remaining displayed on the board past the point it would normally be removed, if it had a battlecry queued. But I could also picture it being completely interrupted.


 * 3) Both Jugglers' triggers are activated by the same action, so they both should get to throw before any deaths are resolved. THEN the Sheep blows up and kills them both. (Related question: What if an undamaged Grim Patron was on the Knife Jugglers' side as the sheep exploded? I believe that the Jugglers become dead just as the Patron's trigger begins, so the new Patron would not cause more Juggling, but I could be wrong!)


 * 4) Same thing, both Jugglers throw at the same time.


 * 5) The Raptor probably dies and therefore never finishes its summoning process, so the Jugglers don't get involved. Knife Juggler specifically says it activates "after" the summoning, which means it typically waits for most other cards to go first.


 * 6) Once again, both Jugglers fire, THEN the Scientist dies. I'm not sure if its secret triggers - there are some weird timing effects with Mad Scientist, namely the "Stampeding Kodo kills Scientist which Mirror Entities the Kodo" weirdness. But the Juggler's timing MAY be too late in the summoning to cause that?


 * 7) "Dead" is a term you have to be careful with. There are known buff effects which, if triggering simultaneously with damaging effects, can "save" a minion that was briefly reduced to 0 health. But those minions were never considered dead because there was no actual death check between the two simultaneous effects. I'm not sure about the timing of Sword of Justice - its page says it goes off very late (at the same time as Knife Juggler), but the example only illustrates that it goes off after battlecries (and even something like Snipe goes off after battlecries). If you discovered that its timing was simultaneous with Snipe, I suspect it would do the same thing as, say, Floating Watcher vs. Explosive Trap, and be saved by the buff. On the other hand if it indeed goes off "after summoning" like Knife Juggler, then Snipe would probably kill the minion first and Sword would never trigger. If Sword and Juggler ARE simultaneous, we could imagine an allied Knife Juggler hitting an enemy Grim Patron, causing an enemy Knife Juggler to hit the fresh Silver Hand Recruit, which is saved by Sword of Justice.


 * I think. :) &#32;- jerodast (talk) 05:24, 30 April 2015 (UTC)


 * 3) Interesting thought. I think that this will happen: The Grim Patron summons a new Grim Patron IMMEDIATELY, and the Knife Jugglers (which are at 0 hp but haven't had time to be set Destroyed yet) will juggle off of it. 'on damage' is very fast, it interrupts practically everything.


 * 5) What if Snipe was played after Juggler #1 but before Juggler #2? Won't it trigger in order of play? (Like how Avenge and Deathrattles queue in order of play)


 * 6) You should watch this if you haven't yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czLt9OFvF1w If you kill a minion with a battlecry, it is Destroyed and its consequences of death (Deathrattles etc) are queued instantly before the battlecry even ends. That's why the Kodo->Mad Scientist->Mirror Entity interaction works. BUT, if Juggle/SoJ/Snipe/Mirror Entity are all the same priority, I think it is too late for the secret to be queued now, just as Kel'Thuzad resurrecting Emperor means Emperor wasn't queued to activate so he doesn't.


 * 7) There is a reference already that shows that SoJ and Juggler are the same level of priority, e.g. order of play determines which one goes first. And if Juggler #1 juggles and kills an explosive sheep, and the explosive sheep reacts immediately (in the same way killing an explosive sheep with a battlecry gets an immediate reaction), then SoJ #2 is still queued and goes off, or...?


 * Basically the main thing I'm stumbling upon atm is 'if a juggled knife during a battlecry causes a Destroy check and queues consequences of death immediately, surely the same should happen if a knife is juggled due to a minion summoning finishing'. I'd love to document in video definitive evidence either way.


 * If you're interested in trying to test any of this stuff, my Skype is Patashu0. I have some of the cards and maybe you'll have the rest :D


 * --Patashu (talk) 05:47, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Just realized Snipe and Mirror Entity are already listed as occuring strictly before summoning resolves. So cross off 5 and 6. Instead, here's a new one:

8) If a minion kills itself during its battlecry (such as by triggering an Explosive Sheep), does Snipe go off on its corpse? (I'm assuming no because it needs a valid target)

--Patashu (talk) 08:50, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oew91YkG7iU <- Leaving this here too, this is important for me to study.

--Patashu (talk) 10:00, 30 April 2015 (UTC)


 * 3) You're absolutely right, I don't know what I was thinking :)


 * 5) I'm pretty sure Jugglers just go later. They're an exception to the usual ordering rules (like Pyro). Or so I've heard.


 * 6) Oh I've seen the video, the Mirror thing makes sense to me (even though it's still clearly counterintuitive haha). I just don't know if Knife Juggler, with its weird ordering, can trigger the same kind of thing.


 * 7) Ah, I missed that reference on the Sword of Justice page - looks convincing (although I'm paranoid so I still prefer to rely on something other than animations to "prove" trigger orders haha). Anyway, in that case the note on KJ's page concerning SoJ is dead wrong, I'll change it.
 * 7b) As to the explosive sheep, here's my understanding: The Battlecry gets its own "phase" in the summoning process. In that phase, only the Battlecry is going off, nothing else is happening simultaneously. At the end of that phase, it checks for deaths, so the sheep explodes and stuff happens, all BEFORE triggers. On the other hand, Knife Jugglers and certain other triggers all share the same timing, so they are considered simultaneous. They all get to go off before any deaths resolve.


 * I see you found a good video to illustrate it :) I just did a test against the AI - I got two damaged Ship's Cannons to fire at a damaged Abomination. The first shot hit the Abom, but the second one still fired at the enemy hero before the Abomination blew up and cleared the board. As far as I can tell, each event (e.g. summon) has multiple points (e.g. "after") tied to triggers. At each one, a wave of triggers (e.g. knives) starts, and the order WITHIN that wave IS determined by play order, AND that might be important for certain chain reactions, BUT none of the DEATHS from any of those triggers or chain reactions will resolve until all chain reactions are finished. THEN all deaths are resolved...which might cause a new wave of triggers and chain reactions...then back to deaths...then triggers...then deaths...and again, and again, until there are no triggers OR deaths left to resolve. Then the event moves on to the next point, which may start a whole new wave alternating between triggers and deaths. And then the next point in the event. And finally the event is complete and the current player can take action again.


 * 8) I tested this and got my Ironforge Rifleman to kill my Explosive Sheep, blowing up 3 dudes but not triggering any secrets. The Loot Hoarder I cast right afterward got Sniped. I would say it's because the Battlecry "point" in the summoning comes before the "secrets point" which includes Snipe, therefore it never actually gets there because the Rifleman's Battlecry cut his summoning event short. But that's just my theory :)


 * Unfortunately I just moved and started a new job with a heavy workload, so I barely have time to play a few games daily for my quests. Maybe in a few weekends I'll try to get in touch for some Hearthstone experimentin'!&#32;- jerodast (talk) 11:23, 30 April 2015 (UTC)


 * 5 and 6) Yep, you're right, I reread the advanced rulebook and Knife Juggler is in a later priority band than Snipe and Mirror Entity. So no shenanigans are possible here :(


 * 7) Looks like we already had the same idea, I fixed up Knife Juggler's page but feel free to review it.


 * 7b) Ok, here's how we can test it: 9) You have two Knife Jugglers and your enemy has Explosive Sheep. You play Dr. Boom and the first Boom Bot resolving causes an enemy Explosive Sheep to be hit. (greedy phase = phase started at battlecry, encompasses everything inside of it automatically, like how when consequences of death start every consequence of the CoDs is also in the phase) means that the Explosive Sheep don't trigger until the battlecry fully resolves and both Boom Bots die. (lazy phase = HS waits until there is a dead minion before starting a phase) means that the first Boom Bot dies right away (triggering ITS deathrattle right away) and the second Boom Bot gets to live. Which happens?


 * 7bii) Interesting, so simultaneous triggers in the same priority band form a greedy phase. (But, don't forget that HS checking for newly dead characters, and thus queueing CoDs for them, is the ONLY thing that can't happen in the middle of a phase! Also shown in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oew91YkG7iU of course :) )


 * 8) Actions can be interrupted if they no longer have a valid target (like if you prepare to attack an enemy and a Secret kills it, or if Explosive and Freezing want to proc but Explosive kills it both). So I guess after it's died from the battlecry Snipe can't proc even if it wanted to because it has no valid target. (Or it just never reaches that step so it never even tries to queue it, there's no way to distinguish the two explanations for now.)


 * 7b) Good plan! I can picture the Sheep going to 0 health and staying there while the second Bot generates another knife throw, it feels consistent and natural, but a test would be cool. I keep hoping I'll be able to find existing videos for all this stuff but there are so many Knife Juggler videos already, the specific combinations are very hard to search for :(


 * 7bii) That's my theory anyway, yep :) Death seems to be the one "special" event, getting queued for later instead of triggering in the same stack as other events. Which is weird because even summoning, which you'd think would be death's equal and opposite event, just uses the regular rules! But once I start thinking about scenarios like that, it actually creates a nice rhythm in the resolution...stuff happens, stuff dies, more stuff happens, more stuff dies, easy peazy! (Or not haha.)&#32;- jerodast (talk) 17:00, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I've updated the http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Advanced_rulebook#Minion_summoning with the sum of our new findings. Thanks to Jerodast, niklink and Musashi for testing stuff (either on my behalf or with me) :) Now all I have left to test is Illidan shenanigans which means... finding someone with Illidan. --Patashu (talk) 00:44, 2 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Aw thanks, I did almost nothing. Nice job testing. Re: your Frothing Berserker concern, I thought Brode's answer made it pretty clear that was a bug, and the Berserker really was not supposed to get buffed until after all damage was dealt. Sadly, even with perfect understanding of the rules, there will probably always be bugs :)&#32;- jerodast (talk) 06:10, 2 May 2015 (UTC)


 * (Just to be clear, I'm talking about this twitter thread regarding a Frothing Berserker hitting itself for too much damage during a Lightbomb : &#32;- jerodast (talk) 06:12, 2 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, but we should document Hearthstone as it behaves NOW, bug or not bug. If Frothing Berserker and Lightbomb has the bugged interaction, we should document it, similar to how we document Warsong Commander as it works now rather than as it's intended to work. --Patashu (talk) 07:07, 2 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Eh, but we document it as a bug, not as some rule that we're still trying to integrate into the rest of the system. There's no mystery to be solved, it's just "Here's what happens, as a rule. But, exception X because bugs."


 * Frankly I don't even feel like specific bugs should even be on this page. Bugs will happen, and this page is bloated enough already. There are several pages of gameplay bugs at bugs, and likely quite a few more on card pages, most of which are NOT on this page. Take the bug where Doomsayer + Alarm-o-Bot creates a Bot that dies the moment it's re-cast. That doesn't mean we should add a paragraph to this page's section about return effects or start-of-turn trigger resolution - instead we just note it on card pages + bug page and move on. I guess we could add "bugs" to the disclaimer at the top.&#32;- jerodast (talk) 07:27, 2 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately I haven't had the time lately to get into these questions in depth, and I'm not sure when I will. Regarding the matter of bugs, I would agree that we should aim to outline the intended rules, not the behaviour of bugs. That said, we shouldn't deliberately mislead readers; if we use specific examples, it's worth explaining the intended behaviour deviates from the current actual behaviour. -- Taohinton (talk) 22:18, 3 May 2015 (UTC)